alternative reader no. 131
They Track Journalists, Don't They?
By Amy Goodman
Democracy Now!
Posted by Bulatlat
ABC News reported on Monday that a senior federal law enforcement had
revealed that the government is now tracking phone calls made by
journalists from the New York Times, Washington Post and ABC News. We
speak with Brian Ross, chief investigative reporter at ABC News.
On
Monday, ABC News reported the government is tracking the phone numbers
dialed from major news organizations in an effort to root out confidential
government sources that speak to reporters. The media groups include the
New York Times, the Washington Post, and ABC News itself. Government leaks
have led to front-page stories detailing the Bush administration’s spy
program and the CIA’s network of secret prisons in Eastern Europe. The
leaks have greatly angered Bush administration officials.
This
revelation comes on the heels of last week’s disclosure that three of the
country’s largest telecom companies handed over millions of phone call
records to help the National Security Agency build the world’s largest
database, comes a new revelation.
We’re
joined now by the ABC News reporter who broke this story – someone who may
well be a target of this new phase of government monitoring himself. Brian
Ross is the Chief Investigative reporter for ABC News. He joins us on the
line from New York.
Amy
Goodman: We now
are joined by ABC News investigative reporter who may well be a target of
this new phase of government monitoring, himself. Brian Ross is the
investigative reporter for ABC News. He joins us on the line from here in
New York. Welcome to Democracy Now!
Brian
Ross: Thank you
very much.
Amy
Goodman: It's good
to have you with us. Well, tell us what you've learned.
Brian
Ross: Well, to
start with, we were warned - Rich Esposito and I were warned last week
that the government was aware of who we were calling and that we should
quickly get new cell phones that didn't come back to our names. An insider
told us, a friendly insider who did not necessarily think this is a good
idea. It was clear to us that somehow the government knew our records. We
were told our phone calls weren't being recorded, but just who we were
calling. Now, in terms of trying to track down insiders at the government
who are providing us with information, that's really about all they need.
That's how they essentially tracked down Mary McCarthy at the C.I.A. and
got her in a polygraph and fired her based on who she was making contact
with. This, for us, is quite chilling. The F.B.I. then, Amy, last night
put out a statement essentially acknowledging that they are tracking phone
calls of reporters. The person I talked to said, "Well, it may be more
like backtracking." But under this administration, what used to be hard to
do, in going after reporters and their phone records, is now easy.
Amy
Goodman: So, the
F.B.I. is admitting this. And what are they saying further? Are they going
to continue to do this?
Brian
Ross: That's part
of a criminal investigation into who provided information to reporters,
who leaked classified information, which would certainly include evidence
of secret prisons or N.S.A. spying, and that's considered classified. The
fact that that was leaked represents a criminal act in the view of the
C.I.A., which has made referrals to the Department of Justice, and then
they handed over to the F.B.I. So, essentially, they have squads of F.B.I.
agents, and what they do is, according to the F.B.I. statement, they begin
by getting the phone records that are easily available to them off of the
government phones themselves, and then they say in this statement, which
is a long sort of non-denial denial, that they take the next logical step,
which is to get a reporter's phone records.
And they
do this, they say, legally. What that means is they use a provision in the
PATRIOT Act - which is designed to go after terrorists, but they're using
it to go after reporters - what they call a national security letter.
Essentially, it's a letter an F.B.I. agent writes, takes it to a phone
company - or anywhere, really - but takes it to a phone company, and the
phone company is then required under the provisions of the PATRIOT Act to
turn over the information, and also a phone company is required not
divulge to the customer, me or anybody else, that the records have been
sought by the government.
Amy
Goodman: And these
national security letters, or NSLs, are not signed by a judge?
Brian
Ross: They are not
signed by a judge.
Amy
Goodman: Why do
you think they're going after you, Brian Ross?
Brian
Ross: There are
two stories that I know by talking to people who have been interviewed
that the C.I.A. considers to be evidence of criminal behavior on the part
of someone. Our story on the C.I.A. secret prisons, the Washington Post
broke that story. They did not report the two countries. We came along and
with our own sources reported the two countries where the prisons had been
were Poland and Romania, and this set off quite a firestorm inside the
C.I.A.
As well,
we reported on an attack in Pakistan using a C.I.A. Predator with missiles
attached to it, the one that killed 18 people there, looking for the
number two man in al-Qaeda, al-Zawahri. We got word of that very early and
reported it, and that infuriated the C.I.A., because it embarrassed them
with the Pakistanis. They hadn't quite made up the cover story they used
when the C.I.A. operates inside Pakistan. Generally, the Pakistanis will
say it was a bomb they set off or something to cover the fact that the
U.S. operates inside Pakistan sometimes. So those two incidents resulted
in the C.I.A. being upset and asking for an investigation as to who leaked
that information.
Amy
Goodman: And,
Brian Ross, didn't Human Rights Watch first reveal Poland and Romania as
the countries in Eastern Europe?
Brian
Ross: They did.
They did. And they did first reveal it. What made a difference was that we
were able to - or they said they "suspected" it. We were able to actually
confirm it with current and former C.I.A. officials, and what upset the
C.I.A., apparently, is it's one thing for Human Rights Watch to say
something, because they feel they can easily deny that; it's harder for
them to deny it when one of the major news organizations says it. So it
carries a certain weight, apparently, in their view, that is hard for them
to deny with their overseas partners, I guess.
Amy
Goodman: We're
talking with Brian Ross, the chief investigative correspondent for ABC
News. According to Justice Department figures, the F.B.I. issued a total
of 9,254 so-called national security letters last year, targeting 3,500
citizens and legal residents.
Brian
Ross: Astounding
figure. I guess we're one of them, or we are this year. This has become a
very common, easily done. The officials I've talked to say that there was
a time when this was difficult to do, even for anything - particularly
involving journalists, that there were all sorts of safeguards and
essentially hoops to jump through. Those have been removed. And this
really is the case. It began with the whole Scooter Libby case, when they
went after reporters there to get information as to who talked to Scooter
Libby, and now is commonly used. Whenever the C.I.A. refers a case for a
criminal investigation, that is almost a quick second step they take.
Amy
Goodman: Brian
Ross, on the issue of the prisons, do you know if these prisons are still
operating in Romania and Poland? I remember in one of her overseas trips
recently, Condoleezza Rice went to Romania.
Brian
Ross: We reported
in December that they had rushed to close them before she landed in
Europe, so that she could say there are no such prisons in Europe, that
they had operated up to a week before, when this word got out. And that
was one of the reasons they were so eager for us not to report it was that
it embarrassed her further. We reported that they closed down those two
prisons and moved the 12 to 14 top al-Qaeda figures being held there to a
third country in North Africa. And we did not report the name of that
country.
Amy
Goodman: Now, USA
Today in their story on AT&T, BellSouth and Verizon giving over the phone
numbers of tens of millions of Americans, the calls that they're making,
they now have reported that BellSouth is saying that they didn't do this.
And you've written a piece on The Blotter at ABC's website, talking about
why Qwest said no to N.S.A. Can you talk further about these companies and
what they're doing?
Brian
Ross: Well,
BellSouth is essentially saying they did not do it on a large-scale basis,
which - what we were told following USA Today's ground breaking story was
that, in fact, they did. It's hard to know, because the companies
initially said they couldn't talk about national security matters. I don't
know how it is they feel that they have some sort of classified
information about national security. But it well might be that there's
some sort of sweeping national security letter that is involved here. The
government said the companies did this voluntarily, so they felt that it
was legal to do it.
There
are two major events tomorrow, Amy, on this issue. One, Russ Tice, the
former N.S.A. intelligence analyst, is going to Capitol Hill to meet with
the Senate staff to reveal what he says are illegal and unlawful acts by
the N.S.A., and in particular General Michael Hayden. As well, there's a
hearing tomorrow in San Francisco over the lawsuit brought against AT&T. A
former AT&T technical figure there has provided information that they set
up secret rooms at AT&T buildings in San Francisco and San Diego, San
Jose, I think L.A. and Seattle, where they essentially split off the fiber-optic
cable, had a way to divert it. This would be so - and the N.S.A. set up
secret rooms and hired people from the phone companies there to
essentially run the information, which is essentially everybody's email
and messages and everything, through this machine, which is able to detect
the text and, as I understand it, they are able to set up sort of key
words and sort of loop through the emails of everyone to see if anyone
else is talking about al-Qaeda or bombings or whatever it is they consider
to be the key words.
Amy
Goodman: I
encourage people to go to our website at democracynow.org for our hour
with Russell Tice, who will be speaking before Congress. But I wanted to
ask you, Brian Ross, about what this means for government whistleblowers
and what you found in talking to them now.
Brian
Ross: Well, this
is very chilling now. We're working on a major story, Amy, that's coming
out Friday, having to do with failures at the Federal Air Marshals
Service, and a number of Federal Air Marshals, in violation of their
rules, have been providing us information. And they are, to say the least,
extremely concerned with the news that the government can so easily obtain
my phone records and wondering what this will mean, because the Air
Marshals Service has retaliated against them. So, they're concerned, and I
know that means that there will be shorter people willing to talk, at
least on the phone. It may be a case where a lot more shoe leather will be
required to do reporting. And if so, that's what we'll have to do.
Any
Goodman: What kind
of guarantees do they ask for now from you? What kind of guarantees can
you give them?
Brian
Ross: The only
guarantee I can give is that I will not reveal their name or their
position. I certainly would not. I think everyone has to know, and there's
nothing I can do about it - if my phone records have been taken by the
government, obtained somehow, I don't know about it. But I do know that
I've been told that they are looking at our records, so I assume they
have.
Amy
Goodman: Brian
Ross, is this changing the way you work?
Brian
Ross: Absolutely.
I mean, this makes it very, very difficult. And, you know, you sort of
have to start thinking, I guess, like some sort of Mafia capo. You make
your phone calls with bags of quarters at pay phones, if you can find them
anymore. It's chilling, to say the least, and I guess I've concluded that
this requires, you know, on my part, your part, all of us who are
reporters and care about the truth, really reporting on this subject, and
I don't think it's self-centered. I think it's important that everyone
know this is what's happening and, you know, let Americans decide if
that's how they want the government to operate.
Amy
Goodman: Aren't
there whistleblower shield laws?
Brian
Ross:
Whistleblower shield - there are shield laws that protect whistleblowers
who go to Congress from retaliation. And there still is the First
Amendment, I believe, in this country, but it's under attack clearly.
There are shield laws for them. But in the case of, say, the Federal Air
Marshals or people at the C.I.A., just contact with a reporter probably is
enough to put them in a fair amount of trouble. Just contacts.
Amy
Goodman: Is ABC
considering suing either the U.S. government or the corporations that are
handing over your information?
Brian
Ross: I think we
certainly would if we could figure out who did it and how. Since we
haven't been notified, you know, we won't know this for at least a year if
they have our records. It puts us in a difficult situation. We have this
insider tip, essentially, that someone has our records. We're trying to
figure out as quickly as we can who it is and how we got them and what
records they have and how we can prevent it. But quite frankly, the
PATRIOT Act, I don't think, was designed to go after journalists, but it
certainly is being used that way.
Amy
Goodman: What what
phone company do you use?
Brian
Ross: Well, there
are a variety of them. AT&T is one of them. Verizon is another. And, you
know, they both seem to be prepared to cooperate, and especially if
they're served with what appear to be legal documents. I guess I don't see
how they don't cooperate.
Amy
Goodman: Have you
asked them directly if they have handed over your documents?
Brian
Ross: Their
response is "We cannot comment on any national security matter." They will
not say.
Amy
Goodman: Well, I
want to thank you very much, Brian Ross, for joining us. Brian Ross is
chief investigative correspondent for ABC News. And we will certainly
continue to follow this story.
16 May
2006
Posted by
Bulatlat
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